Can an Egress Stair Go Down Then Up Again?
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Source: https://archinect.com/forum/thread/102366/egress-stair-is-a-grand-stair-in-the-lobby-qualifed-as-a-means-of-egress
I've always been told that if you enclose the lobby with an appropriately fire-rated enclosure and so you can use information technology as an egress.
if the grand stair is open and so no, it cannot be a means of egress...
the stair itself needs to exist in a continuous fire rated enclosure, in which case yous can commonly make use of an exception to be immune to have one of your means of egress discharge at course level into the antechamber, as long as you have a second stair that discharges through a continuous fire rated enclosure to the exterior of the building at class... in order to accept ane of your ways of egress get out through the entrance hall, it needs to exist fully sprinklered and you need a continuous fire rated separation between the lobby and whatever level below it...
bRink is right, i believe.
If this question comes up on the licensing test, by the style, only put in 2 fully enclosed stairs at totally opposite ends of the building PLUS the lobby stair. At that place's no room for nuanced code interpretations on the examination.
Donna- I in one case designed a private school exactly every bit y'all are saying. However, there was the question nearly liability because even though y'all had ii means of egress sedate from the grand stair, you how do yous foreclose people from using it during an emergency? If someone trips and falls, the school tin can become sued.
agreed... bRink is correct... i've worked on a recreation center with this exact circumstance, although the edifice was quite a bit larger than the one in question here... essentially any open, monumental stair is non-existent as far as code is concerned...
it may exist possible if the foyer is fully enclosed, but information technology would probably just be cheaper to throw in a standard, cheap fire stair...
bRink and others:
Simply want to clarify, and so you mean my friend can do it as long every bit the lobby is fully sprinkled and there is a continuous burn rated separation between entrance hall and ane level beneath it( basement?)?
Does he need to put a burn down rated separation between lobby and second flooring?
I checked NFPA101 v2009, in affiliate vii(means of egress) and chapter 12(new assembly occupies). None tells me at that place is an exception to allow a grand stair to be qualified as an means of egress stair. Could anyone double check it with me?
I believe NFPA is precede than IBC, so I use NFPA current version.
Nov 9, 10 10:09 am ·
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No, the IBC says that exit stairs must be in a fire rated enclosure and discharge to the exterior at grade.
Exceptions:
1. Up to fifty% of your required egress width can exit through a space (your lobby) at course if that infinite is fully sprinklered and fire separated from the level below...
2. If you had a corridor that maintains a continuous burn separation from the stair to exterior- needs to maintain at minimum the aforementioned fire rating as the stair, that works as well... If you lot have a monumental stair that is open, the IBC does non expressly let for that as an egress...
Nov 9, 10 eleven:03 am ·
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Also at that place is an exception where you lot tin have the stair exit through a anteroom but at that place are dimensional limits to that I believe...
Nov ix, 10 xi:05 am ·
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Y'all should actually encounter what jurisdiction you are in and review the lawmaking specific to the jurisdiction... Although the purpose of the IBC is to plant a safety standard, most jurisdictions I've worked on use the IBC or something based on the IBC...
Nov 9, 10 11:sixteen am ·
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bRink:
I still don't quite get it. I also checked IBC too, every bit it noted in Exceptions, it seems IBC can permit my freind to design like that, only NFPA doesn't call up it is legal.
To be curt, includes all the exceptions, who is right? Me or my friend?
Nov 9, 10 11:18 am ·
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Is the stair in a burn down rated enclosure? In other words, does it have rated walls enclosing it? If and so, it can exit through a vestibule if that lobby is sprnklered and separated from below.
If the stair is not in a fire rated enclosure, if it is similar a awe-inspiring open stair, it isn't counted by IBC equally an egress stair... That is how I understand information technology, although I would read the code, don't trust a agglomeration of people on an Internet forum! ;-)
Nov 9, 10 11:25 am ·
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Here's one I saw the other day that had me scratching my head:
2 story mostly A3 building (9000 SF first floor, 5000 2nd), one fire stair, 1 not-egress monumental stair, and a 2nd floor exit on to a non-flammable (but open) pedestrian bridge not at grade.
I keep pregnant to dig through and see if there'southward whatsoever style the pedestrian bridge could be counted as a means of egress. I doubtfulness it, but anyone want to chinkle in?
Humorously plenty, if there was a disquisitional situation that required evacuation of the building... more than likely everyone volition run to the 1000 staircase anyways equally it is the biggest and most important psychologically.
Funny how this works out, no?
bRink: Cheers for your description.
OldFogey: That is a good and straight respond, thanks. Practise you notice they mention it a ii-story building? Based on 2006 IBC, If a building with i story on the ground and one basement, the exception doesn't employ.
of course, this MAKEs sense. The basement requires stricter fire get out than the rooms on the ground.
Unicorn Ghost: I have same feeling too. But if in that location is smoke, people should run to the egress stair with Big red Exit on the top.
manamana: I remember it doesn't use to the code. But I would similar to listen to others.
OldFogey: Did you check IBC 2009 Section 1016.1? I was told the exceptions are in that location.
I am wrapping up working on a project in NYC where the ornamental staircase was not eligible to exist an egress stair. This building was sixty stories, and that is obviously different than your friends 2 story community heart. But, I believe there has to be fire separation for a stair to be considered an egress stair.
The condition described by ARCHNME is nevertheless permitted for two story buildings with low hazard occupancies under 1020 and Chapter 7 of the IBC/CBC. No time to observe the precise lawmaking section correct now, but you'll need to read all the exceptions under the section on Vertical Leave Enclosures.
2006 IBC 1020.1 exception 8. we don't do 1009 IBC yet. For at present, just one stair should need to be enclosed as long every bit only 2 are required. Of grade your local authority having jurisdiction can translate that still they choose.
not to be an donkey, merely how hard is information technology to pull out your ibc (or locally applicable code) and cheque the requirement? i don't know what the answer is off the top of my head, merely i know how to await up the answer. by and large, building codes are pretty damn explicit, and this doesn't audio similar an effect that would be up for much contend. allow'southward endeavour to exist a little self-sufficient here.
Here is IBC. It says OK to take the grand stair in the foyer as a ways of egress. Every bit I posted previously, NFPA101 doesn't permit this to happen:
In IBC 2009, at that place is requirements for vertical exit enclosure:
1020.i Enclosures required. Interior exit stairways and interior exit ramps shall be enclosed with fire barriers constructed in accordance with Section 706 or horizontal assemblies constructed in accord with Department 711, or both. Exit enclosures shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than ii hours where connecting four stories or more and not less than 1 hour where connecting less than four stories. The number of stories connected by the exit enclosure shall include any basements simply not whatsoever mezzanines. An exit enclosure shall not exist used for any purpose other than means of egress.
Exceptions:
viii. In other than Grouping H and I occupancies, a maximum of fifty percent of egress stairways serving one adjacent floor are non required to be enclosed, provided at least ii means of egress are provided from both floors served by the unenclosed stairways. Any two such interconnected floors shall not be open to other floors. Unenclosed exit stairways shall be remotely located as required in Section 1015.2.
nine. In other than Grouping H and I occupancies, interior egress stairways serving only the first and second stories of a building equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 are not required to be enclosed, provided at least two means of egress are provided from both floors served by the unenclosed stairways. Such interconnected stories shall not be open to other stories. Unenclosed exit stairways shall be remotely located as required in Section 1015.ii.
Glad to come across yous got to the key provision - two story buildings are allowed to have unenclosed stairs if sprinklered.
Nov 9, 10 10:47 pm ·
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I stand up corrected... 2 storey building... Is that true of IBC 2009 too?
Skillful discussion by the way, we should exercise more than of this kind of thing on archinect...
November 9, ten 11:14 pm ·
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Will wait it up later... By the way, anybody know where you can download a PDF copy of the IBC to a mobile device? I know there are torrents, but whatever site that is accessible from a smart telephone?
November 9, x 11:35 pm ·
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manamana: Nice! That's an awesome link!
Going to add together a couple building code editions to the iBooks and bookmark this one for sure!
Nov 10, ten four:47 am ·
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Also you lot can find a few code books here:
I besides agree nearly having these discussions on archinect, they are incredibly helpful.
A forum well-nigh edifice codes tin be found here, with good info:
November 10, ten 1:twenty pm ·
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Your jurisdiction decides which code supercedes which code....
In general if your city says IBC without revisions then get by that even if NFPA is referenced., because most likely the examiner is using what the urban center says to use.
AND IF ITS QUESTIONABLE, GRAY, OPEN TO INTERPRETATION FILE THE DAMN Thing ALREADY... Quit dicking around burning upwardly the fee discussing something that can be answered with a elementary filing, so what if yous objections, yous may not who knows, you lot don't..
Nov 10, 10 seven:29 pm ·
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Or but communicate with the city...
Nov 10, 10 9:44 pm ·
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I know this is an former post, just ArchNRE's comments re. the IBC 2009 seem wrong. 2009 has removed the exception. likewise it's located in section 1022.1, not 1020... Read the code!
April 8, 13 11:04 am ·
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Opening this upward yet again, since this is a top google result when looking for this problem...
IBC 2009 does still allow an open up stair. Terms have been redefined and things rearranged. Open stairs are "leave access stairways" per 1016, exceptions iii & 4. Leave access stairways can exist counted as an exit per 1021, exception iii.
Very helpful article to explain this is hither: http://safetymatters.aonfpe.com/2012/Volume-1/code.aspx
Moberlin, and Al Godwin (writer of the article on Exit Admission Stairs. Information technology is awesome that I finally understand - now the how to get open up stairs vs an atrium loop for travel distance for a business use to egress from the second story (sprinkler) space/building at 300 ft vs the loop of thinking it was an atrium which express me to 200 ft.
thanks give thanks you !
I could not figure out how the ICC 2009 commentary was stating that we could take 4 open stairs per 1016 exception 4. (because I could not get past the atrium looping in the code research).. bug between Loftier-ascension/multi story and "two story" buildings exiting condom.
http://safetymatters.aonfpe.com/2012/Volume-ane/lawmaking.aspx
and the term "exit access Stair" thanks for defining the terminology!!!! and the in English language not code speak of the real world use.
These discussions are much appreciated, even if you have to read all the comments to understand the path traveled to the conclusion.
Another important part of this connexion LOOP is
Number of exits and Continuity department 1021.one
exception No. iii which permits you to use exception three or iv of 1016.1
( I am guessing that "4" is the maximum number in the 2009 commentary - because of the table 1021.ane, but I have not constitute why the commentary says up to four open stairs; referneced table says minimum so the myth withal remains.)
Jun 18, xiv 9:44 am ·
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Late to the discussion, by a few years, but in case someone ever reads this, as the second floor is 3000sqft, it technically qualifies as a mezzanine and not an additional floor. You lot don't demand a rated interior stair between a primary floor and a mezzanine.
Aug 31, 16 9:50 am ·
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No, information technology doesn't qualify as a mezzanine.
A mezzanine can be no greater than 1/three, 1/2, or 2/3 of the floor area of the space in which they're located. All depends on which exceptions you can apply.
Mezzanines are also required to be open to the area they are connected to. Again there are exceptions.
You cannot simply label any random space as a mezzanine. Some building officials permit it, but they're non correct.
Aug 31, 16 ten:37 am ·
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I'd like to revive this thread. I'm currently working on several two story small office buildings (B occupancy) with less than 29 occupants per floor. I'k using IBC 2015 with the Massachusetts amendments.
I believe that I tin provide one strategically located get out access stair (open stair) as the sole means of egress off the second floor, all the same, I'thou thrown for a loop for accessibility requirements of 1009.
1009 states that
1) All required means of egress must be accessible
2) Accessible mean of egress must be accessed or integrate an expanse of refuge.
Doesn't this exclude open up stairs (exit access stairs) from the ways of egress system completely because they aren't enclosed and therefore tin't accept an area of refuge(?)
1009.three Excep four and 5 might be relevant. Stupid question hither: is your edifice sprinklered?
He needs 2 enclosed exit stair for such a large area.
No sprinkler, no lift. In MA, appears that "accessibility" is not required for "private" facilities. I'one thousand confirming with the country board, so information technology may mean that in these kind of buildings in MA nosotros tin can ignore these issues. Withal, what if this hypothetical edifice was in another state? My base question however remains:
1) if an open "leave access stair" can count as an exit
But
two) every required go out must be accessible AND have an area of refuge
It means that you can't do an open stair ever, right? I take to be misunderstanding the lawmaking, because it'southward non making sense to me.
Role of your problem, and ours actually, is what is the length of the common path of egress travel? That tin can't exceed 75'. Look at 1006.3
Nosotros "enclosed" a historic one thousand spiral stair serving as egress in a fraternity house. I won't get through all the exceptions and code (GA) merely the enclosure just had to be smoke. Existing dimensions for the spiral stair and landing/door egress widths, etc were thankfully all to code. The owner wasn't immediately on lath with the new doors on 1st floor, but it seemed "depression-hanging fruit" to brand code piece of work.
Your AHJ may have a different opinion; we worked closely with our city building official and burn down align to show improvement on what otherwise was a non-compliant edifice. Among other things, Assembly space on the 3rd flooring of a type 5B residential building for their fraternity meetings... code was non happy.
I recollect yous're misreading 1009.3: "...shall either incorporate an area of refuge within an enlarged floor-level landing or shall be accessed from an expanse of refuge complying with Section 1009.6. [Accent added]"
The signal of an area of refuge is to have enough space for a disabled person to expect at the elevation without blocking the athletic people getting out. If the Code allows the stairway to be unenclosed, then the area of refuge can too exist unenclosed, every bit long as the required flooring expanse is provided.
I do meet that, merely an expanse of refuge needs to exist enclosed, per 1009.6.iv, correct? So I can exercise the open stair, but then I demand to put a niggling protected surface area of refuge cupboard next to it? This closet would demand the 2-way communication too? That'south a tough sell to a client when the level can't ever take a wheelchair on information technology because no elevator.
Nope, information technology says " OR ...complying with Section 1009.6."
regarding original post... 1019.three.1 of 2015 IBC would permit that open up stair.... assuming it is 2 story building, within the full get out travel limitation, and non an I2 or I3 Occupancy